Who are the 24 elders in Revelation and Other Questions

A forum on prophetical matters, designed to increase our interest and knowledge of the sure word of prophecy, whereunto we do well to take heed in our hearts until the daystar arise. Contributions, in a variety of formats as brief as those hereunder, are invited from interested readers, perhaps offering alternative interpretations. Simple questions are also invited.
(Views expressed are not necessarily those of the Editorial committee.)

  • From whose belly do “the rivers of living waters flow” (John 7:38)? Jesus, or the believer? And what prophecy is here quoted?

The quotation could be drawn from either Zech. 14:8. Ezek. 47:1 or Isa. 12:3. Or perhaps John has all of these and/or others in mind. Verse 39 reveals that it is speaking of the Spirit and since we are later told (Rev. 22:1) that the river of the water of life flows from the throne of God and of the Lamb, my predilection would be to say, Jesus (cf. John 4:14).

  • Do you think that Revelation 2 & 3 give us an overview of the seven consecutive historical stages that the church was to go through before the Second Coming?

No. I don’t. And I know of nothing in church history to support such a contention. The letters to the seven churches were to seven actual churches. But, of course, any of the messages could be applied to ANY church in any age where a similar condition exists. So we ought to look to OURSELVES, and if the cap fits.

To say that WE are now in the “Laodicean state” is fine, if it means that we are aware of our faults and are prepared to apply the Spirit’s remedy (cf. Rev. 3:18). But if we mean it of others, and not ourselves, then it is more than possible that WE are poor, blind, miserable and naked wretches who “need the eye salve to anoint our eyes, that we may see”.

  • Who are the twenty-four elders and four living creatures of Rev. 4:4,6?

Not the redeemed. Probably angels. Take another look at Rev. 5:9 in any version BUT the A.V. Then have a look at the interesting comments in the May 1974 TESTIMONY, pp.186-191. Makes you think, doesn’t it?

  • Can you briefly explain the identity of Lucifer in Isaiah 14:12?

Lucifer (meaning ‘the shining one’) is identified for us in v.4 as the king of Babylon. In his zenith he had been a wicked oppressor of the nations, but now, in Isaiah’s vision, his day has come and it is Babylon’s turn to be persecuted (vv.4-6). He has been excessively proud (this Daniel is able to historically verify, cf. Daniel 2-4; particularly 4:25) and must learn that the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned, for God will “rise up against … Babylon” (v.22). Babylon, of course, wasn’t the first or the last to say in its heart “I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God” cf. Gen. 11:4; Obadiah 3-4; 2 Thess. 2:3-4.

  • Is Gomer (Ezekiel 38:6) the Bible name for modern France, as Dr. Thomas suggests?

I think not. Gomer was the father of “Togarmah of the north quarters” (ibid) see Gen. 10:3. This indicates therefore a northern location for Gomer. Reference to Ezek. 27:14 further indicates that since ancient trade was conducted between Togarmah and Tyre, the region was not too far distant. France, apart from being decidedly to the east, was far too distant to be a feasible alternative.

We have received an interesting article (too lengthy for publication in these pages) entitled The Prince of Ezekiel’s Prophecy (Ezek. 44:3) which raises some pertinent questions. We propose holding the article over, intact, for later publication; but for now will offer some of the relevant questions and invite our readers’ views on the matters:

(a)Does Ezekiel 43-48 refer to the Kingdom age?

(b)Who is the Prince referred to in these chapters?

(c)Why is he not referred to as Messiah?

(d)How can the Prince (if he Is the exalted Christ) offer a sin offering for himself, as well as for the people (Ezek. 45:22)?

  • Why do you believe that the promised locust invasion of Joel 1 is not only literal, but also symbolic?

The importance of establishing the clear primary meaning of prophecy should be stressed so that the secondary, and sometimes even the tertiary, meaning can be also clearly perceived. Prophecy does have more than one level of interpretation. Here, an imminent locust invasion was foretold and whilst all Joel’s language could figuratively refer to that actual invasion of insects, it also I believe, embraced a broader meaning for the future. Hence the locusts are described as “a nation… strong, and without number” (1;6); “the northern army” (2:20) etc. Was the insect scourge then also a foreshadowing of the future Assyrian invasion under Sennacherib? Certainly; but beyond that it clearly points us to the greater Day of the LORD yet to come.

  • Where is the Valley of Jehoshaphat (Joel 3)?

I do not know. My guess would be the vast plain of Esdraelon, the “valley of decision” in the north, where so many decisive battles have been engaged in the past. The term undoubtedly owes its origin to the wonderful deliverance experienced by Jehoshaphat and his people when threatened by the great confederacy of Ammon, Moab and Edom (2 Chron. 20), forming the type for the greater deliverance yet to come.

  • Is the universal desire for “Peace and Safety” (1 Thess. 5:1-3) in the heart of twentieth century man and the formation of Peace Societies one of the sure signs of the Lord’s coming in our days?

No. Since our days abound with wars and rumours of wars there is anything but a universal desire for peace in the hearts of all men. But a peaceful disposition in all men is no prerequisite for the Coming. Nor has 1 Thess. anything to do with the formation of Peace Societies in the world. The context shows clearly that, like Rev. 16:15, it is a sober warning to the ecclesia to be watchful and awake lest the Day overtake as a thief.

  • The following interesting solution has been offered by a reader, to the problem of the Binding of the Dragon (Rev. 20:1-3). We trust that it will satisfy the needs of the reader who raised the problem.

Referring to Believer No. 20, page 5, item 5; and Believer No. 22, page 9, item 10, there is a strong case for identifying the literal and ideological binding of the modern apocalyptic dragon of Rev. 20 with the overthrow and burial of RUSSIAN GOG in the Dead Sea rift (Ezek. 38:39; Isa. 63:34). The fourth dominion embraces TWO great divisions of power — Eastern and Western legs of the Image, each with its distinctive phases. The one is GODLESS ATHEISM, called by God, DRAGON — DEVIL SATAN; the other CORRUPTED CHRISTIANITY, called SEA BEAST and BABYLON THE GREAT.

The central theme of the Apocalypse concerns the latter, but the dragon’s fate is by no means excluded. Each has its own BOTTOMLESS PIT or “Abyss” phase and the two must not be confused. The descent of the Papal secular SEA BEAST of Rev. 13 into the ABYSS dates from the French Revolution and terminated in 1870. While still virile in persecuting the Huguenots (1572) it was designated “The beast that ascends (will ascend) from the BOTTOMLESS PIT” (Rev. 11:7).

GOG, the modern DRAGON, descends into the ABYSS when the Lord comes to redeem Israel. Then will follow the ascent in the WEST of the ROMAN SEA BEAST from its ABYSS to great tem­poral power (Rev. 17:8). When Constantine took the restraining dragon out of the way it allowed the incipient SEA BEAST and its LAWLESS ONE to be revealed (2 Thess. 2:7,8). When the true ‘Michael’ appears and binds the modern DRAGON it allows the Neo-Sea Beast and the papal MAN OF SIN to emerge from their ABYSS, thence to go into perdition at Armageddon. Thus, the Lord “will slay him with the breath of his mouth, and destroy him by his appearing and his coming”.

The ARABAH was the “bottomless pit” from whence arose Mahomet and his hordes (Rev. 9:1­11) to scourge the Eastern Roman dragon. The modern DRAGON, as an extension of the Eastern Roman Empire will be broken, bound and sealed over in the Arabah by the Lard who comes from Edom with stained garments from Bozrah. (See Bro. Doble’s “The Kingdom, the Power and the Glory”, chapter 35.)