Communications

Enoch and Elijah

Dear Bro. Don

Some comments on “translated that we should not see death.”

Now the scripture expressly says, “And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven” (John 3:13). Thus it can be categorically stated that this applies to both Enoch and Elijah, neither of which “hath ascended into the heavens”!

Just a cursory reading of the ‘Faith’ chapter, Hebrews 11, should put the matter to rest. “These all died in faith, not having received the promises.. .And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise (Heb. 11:13,39). The phrase, “of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets” (v.32) undoubtedly includes Elijah as one of the prophets who died.

In regards to being “translated that he should not see death,” Enoch like any and all the faithful must await the resurrection. It seems obvious to me that any or all who have understood and grasped the gospel via immersion have been translated that they should not see death. n other words, “Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son” (Col 1:12,13).

As to the disposition or nature of angels, I would be pleased if anyone could explain exactly what angels are. Since the word angels can mean messengers in reference to human beings (e.g. Jude 6).

Verne Long, Caldwell, Idaho

Two COGAF groups

Dear Bro. Don,

I have a comment about the invitation from the Church of God of the Abraham Faith to attend an event they are putting on in Ohio (2/04 pg. 97).

I am very familiar with the fact the COGAF in the Midwest are very close to our beliefs and there is a lot of interaction.

However, my concern is that the COGAF in other parts of the country, particularly California, do not hold the same beliefs as those in the Midwest. If a CYC member, or someone young in the truth, got the impression from the invitation that all COGAF members are the same, it could be a problem.

I would suggest that some disclaimer, or note from the editor, should have been part of the invitation to explain that difference. Or possibly in a future edition.

Dave Gad berry, Sylmar, California

Excellent point. Thanks very much for drawing it to our attention. What is called the “General Conference of the Church of God of the Abraham Faith,” headquartered in Atlanta, Georgia, is clearly astray on a number of first principle points. For example, several of their leaders believe in a personal devil and their members tolerate such a view.

A division occurred in their community in the early 1900’s and the small group, primarily represented in the Midwest (Cleveland, Unionville, Salem and Niles, OH; Roll, IN; Perry ville, KY and Kansas City) and Florida (Gainesville, Flagler Beach, Gibsonton, Miami and Dade County), remained loyal to their fundamental teachings which, as you note, are virtually identical to that of Christadelphians. It is this small group which holds the Gathering and extended the invitation.

As a point of historical interest, their congregations in Cleveland and Unionville, Ohio, found it necessary to change their name to avoid confusion. They adopted, “Church of the Blessed Hope” from Titus 2:13 to distinguish themselves from the General Conference COGAF church in the area. The small COGAF fellowship, currently involved in discussions with Christadelphians, has nothing at all to do with the General Conference churches and is delighted to see publication of this clarification.

Baltimore supports NASU

To Our Dear Christadelphian
Brothers and Sisters,
Love and greetings in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The Baltimore Christadelphian ecclesia wishes to express its endorsement of the North American Statement of Understanding (NASU) as the basis of inter-ecclesial fellowship on our continent. We recognize that the Birmingham Amended Statement of Faith (BASF) remains the basis of inter-ecclesial fellowship outside North America and that each ecclesia will use principles stated in “The Ecclesial Guide” to determine fellowship practice.

It is the hope of the Baltimore ecclesia that brothers and sisters across the continent will embrace the NASU as a means of putting our community’s division to rest. We urge other ecclesias to prayerfully consider the NASU and endorse its use in inter­ecclesial fellowship. It is only through the collective will of individual ecclesias that we will build a united household of faith.

The brothers and sisters in Baltimore are reaching out to all our brethren to lend our support and encouragement in achieving unity. We thank the other ecclesias that have already endorsed the NASU and look forward to hearing from more ecclesias in the near future.

Bible Prophecy

Dear Bro. Don,

I have recently read your booklet, “Israel’s Defeat by Gog or the Arabs” (available from the Christadelphian Scripture Study Service) and would like to thank you for your efforts to present the clear connection between Ezekiel 38,39, Joel 2,3, and Zechariah 12-14, and also for showing the weak presentations of various scriptures to give credence to a defeat by the Arabs.

My main reason for writing to you is related to certain points you make which seem to confirm a point that I have noticed regarding many of the deviations from the traditional interpretations. I will try to explain it as clearly and concisely as I can and ask if you will give me your observations and explanations, as there may well be something I am missing in my approach.

On page 18 you state regarding Amos 1 and 3, “Judgment against various nations have all been fulfilled. No latter-day indication at all…judgments fulfilled by Assyria, Egypt and Babylon.”

On page 20 “We should not take every prophecy and assume it has a latter-day application. If it has not yet been fulfilled, it is still future. But if it has been fulfilled, let us recognize this fact and not force upon it an application that is arbitrary.”

On page 21 re. Zephaniah 2:11, “The prophecy has fulfilled its role in assuring us of the certainty of God’s word and another future fulfillment is not required.”

When surveying many of the recent publications which desire to express a detailed exposition of the present world scene, particularly when viewing Israel’s position and events leading to the Lord’s return, one notices that the main premise has to be a statement that there is a “dual fulfillment,” “a dual application” of prophecies, otherwise they have no basis for their latter-day interpretations.

While I can understand typical representation, it seems to me that to use fulfillment in this way is against the meaning of language (fulfillment =completion, accomplishment).

When I go through Matthew’s gospel, I find ‘fulfillment’ has application to the completion of prophecies relative to the Lord Jesus and the apostles’ work. In Galatians 5:14, Paul expresses an ongoing fulfillment of a principle in the individual life of believers through the ages. The type of comments which I find misleading, if not deceptive are such as:

“As with many Bible prophecies, this had an initial fulfillment in AD 70 as well as a latter-day one.”

“What it is vital to realize is that Revelation can have more than one fulfillment.”

“In studying Bible prophecy and the numerous expositions on prophecy, we must remember that many prophecies have a dual application, especially those concerning details on latter-day events.”

In view of your comments in your booklet perhaps you could expand and take into account some of my concerns about “dual fulfillment.”

Derek Rhodes, East Sussex, UK

Thank you for your letter. You have hit upon a key point in the current discussions of last-day prophecy.

Some prophecies do have a dual fulfillment: Psalm 2:1-2 is taken to apply to Herod and Pilate (Acts 4:25-26), but the Psalm clearly looks to the establishment of the kingdom of God (Psa. 2:5-6). The same is true of Joel 2:28-32, which Peter applies to Pentecost (Acts 2:16-21), but which clearly looks forward to the kingdom when “my people shall never be ashamed” (Joel 2:27).

One prophecy after another, however, as you noted, has only one fulfillment: Psalm 110; Isaiah 53; Isaiah 50:4-9 (Luke 18:31-33); Jeremiah 29:10 (II Chron. 36:20­23), etc.

The difficulty comes when we know a prophecy has already been fulfilled yet wonder if it could also apply to events which have not yet occurred. Unless there are very clear biblical indications to this effect, I don’t know how we could know As we agree, this is what bothers both of us. When we carefully examined a number ofsuch passages, we could see no basis for giving them a latter-day application, although some may have, as future events unfold.

For our own understanding, we restrict ourselves to those passages which contain such phrases as “I will not let them pollute my holy name any more” or “there shall be no more utter destruction [in Jerusalem],” etc. It seems to me that such scripture should be used to define the framework of coming events.

In Pain, Try Prayer

Dear Bro. Don,

During this night, I was having severe pain in my left shoulder as well as other places in my body. I finally got up and went to the shower and ran very warm water over the shoulders and body.

I started praying to God through Jesus: “Please relieve this pain. Please hear my pleading, I am in so much pain. Only you, our Father through Jesus, can help ease our pains in the body. Please help me.” And through my wonderful hope in Jesus, I found a great calm come over my shoulder and body. Only God through Jesus, in sincere prayer, can truly help us. Thank you God, in Jesus’ name.

A sister experiencing rheumatoid arthritis pain.

Vivian Cash, Wichita Falls, Texas

NASU Considerations

Dear Bro. Don,

In his letter to the editor (January, 2004), Bro. Bob Green asked, “What are we waiting for? Let ecclesias actively seek reconciliation by affirming their support for the NASU basis of unity and welcoming to the Lord’s table all the brothers and sisters formerly separated from them who are now united with them in support of this basis of unity ­as some ecclesias have already done.”

Now my question is: What is the next step? Will there be a process laid out? If folks are waiting for individual ecclesias to do something it won’t happen. People are too complacent. For those who don’t look beyond the walls of their building there is no problem with the status quo. For people like me who ache when we meet with dear brothers and sisters but hesitate to break bread it is a huge problem. “Not wanting to shake the faith of the weaker brother by our liberty,” we forego an important aspect of fellowship and weep at the sorry state of affairs.

I didn’t grow up in a Christadelphian home so first saw this issue as a logical, reasoning adult and have found that there is more personality than substance to it. I was frustrated at the first attempts that I saw that sent the entrenched from both sides to the table. How foolish to send people invested in keeping the division to talk about unity.

We know that of all the things God hates — sowing discord tops the list. We have a sound document that I haven’t heard anyone say they disagree with. The only question I’ve heard raised is, “What are they asking us to do?”

In this the January editorial you asked: “What is God waiting for?” Maybe it’s also this type of unity.

Linda Reding, Jefferson, Mass.

To date, very few Central Fellowship ecclesias have responded to the recent mailing by the NASU committee. At this point, the committee would like to receive comments about the Unity Package along with any suggestions about implementation. They hope to be distributing more information in the near future but need feedback from the ecclesias as soon as possible.