Professional Help
Dear Bro. Don,
We were very concerned when we read Bro. Kurds’ letter in the March Tidings. We would like to present some information that may be helpful. We pray that our brothers and sisters will have open minds and compassionate hearts as they examine the following issues.
There is a vast difference between “the blues” and clinical depression. Certainly we have all experienced the temporary mood swings that result from situations encountered in everyday life. Losing a job, a car having a costly breakdown, or a loved one with a serious illness all may cause us to feel appropriately sad. For this type of depression, Bible readings are likely to remind us of important priorities and be a wonderful help.
In contrast, a person experiencing clinical depression will have marked changes in eating and/or sleeping habits, and may have feelings of hopelessness, lack of motivation for the simplest chores, and at its worst, suicidal thoughts. These symptoms will last for weeks or months, often with no apparent cause. The origin of these symptoms is a chemical imbalance, just as the origin of diabetes is a chemical imbalance. While Bible reading will provide some comfort when dealing with these physical ailments, as Christadelphians we believe medical intervention is warranted. This intervention should not be interpreted as a lack of faith.
Bro. Kurtis refers to the cleansing of “diseases of the soul” in 1 Corinthians 6:9-11. An examination of this passage reveals the subject concerns conscious choices of behavior against God’s laws: sexual immorality, idolatry, homosexuality and the like. These are clearly not the same as biological illnesses. There are many scriptures which indicate biological illnesses required the physical presence of Jesus or the laying on of hands to cure them (Matt. 9:20-22; Mk. 8:22-25 ; Lk. 5 :12-14). In fact, Mark 5:2-15 tells of a man tormented by demons who knew Jesus was the Son of God. Jesus did not question his faith, but instead cast out the “demons” tormenting his mind. The physical presence of Jesus was required to accomplish this.
Lacking his physical presence, we routinely use aspirin to relieve headaches, visit obstetricians to deliver babies and consult oncologists to battle cancer. These “gifts” were not mentioned in Ephesians 4:11 and, therefore, according to Bro. Kurds’ argument, we should not utilize them.
There also seems to be a fear that consulting a secular professional such as a psychiatrist may lead us away from the Truth. We would like to point out that sometimes our brothers and sisters are too close to us, or our problems too foreign to their experience, for them to help. How strong is our faith and how great a chance do we have to enter the kingdom if we can so easily be led away?
Unfortunately, Bro. Kurds’ views are so prevalent in the brotherhood that many of us fail to seek medical help and suffer needlessly. Some have even left the Truth, believing they lacked faith because their illness did not disappear with Bible study.
We hope anyone reading this letter and needing support and information regarding potential chemical imbalance will seek a psychiatric consultation. If support from someone in the brotherhood will help, letters can be sent to the Tidings for forwarding to us. Finally, we pray that those who have never been affected by this frustrating and frightening illness will thank our Heavenly Father for their good health.
With love in our precious hope,
Two concerned Christadelphians
People of the Saints
Dear Bro. Don,
In a recent address, you referred to “the people of the holy ones (or saints) of the most High” (Dan. 7:27) as being the immortalized believers. Yet Bro. John Thomas in Exposition of Daniel identifies “the people” as being the Jews in the kingdom. Following is his comment:
“The reduction of the promises of Deity to accomplished facts must be the extinction, not only of the Ottoman, but of all the governments and powers of Europe and Asia; and the substitution of the Israelitish Dominion in their place, when Israel shall be Yahweh’ s first-born (Ex. 4:22) among the nations of the coming age. Being the body of this kingdom, whose founders are the High Ones, and its rulers and princes their holy ones, the people of the holy ones are the constituents, or commonality, of the body, even the twelve tribes of Israel, the nation of Yahweh” (Exposition of Daniel, 1940, The Christadelphian, pg. 19).
Several verses speak of the exalted position of the Jews in the kingdom. “Ten men shall (10 equals the number of the Gentiles?) take hold out of all languages of the nations.. .of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you…” (Zech. 8:23). The Jews will thus be highly honored among other nations. In addition, Isaiah speaks plainly of Gentiles helping the Jews to return to Israel: “the isles shall wait for me, and the ships of Tarshish first, to bring thy sons from far…those that escape.. .shall declare my glory among the Gentiles. And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations” (Isa. 60 :9 ; 66:19-20). “Those that escape” likely refers to the one-third of Israeli Jews who survive the Gogian invasion (Zech. 13:8). Isaiah continues to reveal how the children of Israel will be priests and Levites in the kingdom (Isa. 66:21).
These points tend to support Bro. Thomas’ conclusion. What do you think of his comments and do you agree with him?
With love in Christ,
Rod Ghent, Mississauga, ONT
We wholeheartedly agree with the points you present and with all that Bro. Thomas says in this section of his exposition except for the specific matter in question.
In the kingdom, the nation of Israel will truly have an honor and fame above every other mortal people (Zeph. 3:1920; Zech. 8:23). They will triumph over the Gentiles (Zech. 9:13-10:12) and will control the area from the Nile to the Euphrates east of the Mediterranean Sea (Zeph. 2:9; Zech. 10:6,10).
But Daniel 7:27 goes much further than that. It speaks of’ the kingdom and dominion and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven” as being given to the “people of the saints of the most High.” Even in Zechariah 10, where the extent of Israel’s future power is revealed, they are not described as possessing more than enlarged Palestine (Zech. 10:6,10). The immortalized believers, however, will share rulership with Christ and with him have active possession of all the world (Rev. 2:26,27; 3:21; 5:9,10; Matt. 5:5; 25:34). As with all scripture, overall context is the key determinate in understanding any specific phrase that can be taken more than one way. In the case of Daniel 7:27, we feel the overall teaching of scripture determines that the verse is referring to the glorious position of the immortalized believers and not to natural Israel.
Earlier in Daniel 7, the future role of the immortalized believers is clearly referred to. “The saints (holy ones) of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever…and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom” (Dan. 7:18,22). As we know, the saints — holy ones — are identified in verse 21 as those against whom the Roman religious system has made war and has prevailed over the centuries. We thus know “saints” here refers to men and not angels. Bro. Thomas also identifies the saints in these verses as being the immortalized believers. We feel verses 18 and 22 are describing the same point as verse 27.
Additional items to note relate to the biblical use of words. In Daniel 12:1, “children of the people” is used as a synonymous phrase with “the people.” In Ezra 7, “the people of Israel” (v.13) equals “the people” (vs.16,25). We are suggesting that “the people of the saints of the most High” is equivalent to “the saints of the most High.”
Note as well the implied comma in the widely-used phrase, “my people Israel” (Ezk. 39:7; Dan. 9:20; Amos 9:14, etc.). “Israel” clarifies “my people” and could be punctuated, “my people, Israel” or “my people — Israel.” Similarly, we feel the sense of Daniel 7:27 is captured by the NIV and the NKJV when they punctuate the verse as follows: “…the kingdoms under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High” (NKJV). “…the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be handed over to the saints, the people of the Most High” (NIV). The word “people” or “saints” is thus clarified by the phrase which follows.
Accordingly, we feel verse 27 describes the position of the immortalized believers in the kingdom and is not referring to the role of natural Israel.
Hazards of Communal Cup
Dear Brothers and Sisters,
I do not write this letter to alarm anyone but in order that an item of concern may be considered and discussed.
Christ spoke of the last days as a time when there would be famines and pestilences upon nations. AIDS is spreading and is an obvious example of a last-day pestilence.
Perhaps we should be warned and should give second thoughts to our practice of drinking wine from common cups. Any one of us could be carrying disease and not be aware of it. We may like to think that no one in the community would ever have something like AIDS. That would be naive as we may have some false disciples among us or those who have recently converted from the world or those who are just now going through a sinful period of their lives.
We cannot isolate ourselves from the problems of the world.
I have also heard complaints of pouring the left-over wine back into the main container. Is this really necessary?
Perhaps we could consider using individual little cups.
Surely in these last days of carelessness in the world and perhaps, unknown to us, in our ecclesias, we ought to give this our consideration right away.
A sister in Christ
Comments would be appreciated from those having medical knowledge on the subject.
Shortly after receiving the above, we saw an article from The Los Angeles Times headlined, “AIDS panic in Japan feeds on misinformation.” It went on to say, “…the club was deluged with calls that indicated ignorance about AIDS. Clients demanded, for instance, that all drinking glasses be sterilized, although the disease is spread only through exchanges of bodily fluids.” One problem is that most of us don’t have accurate information about this disease.
From what we have read, while HIV (the AIDS virus) does exist in the saliva of those who are HIV-positive, there are no documented cases of anyone being infected through the saliva. This includes partners of HIV-positive individuals who regularly exchange saliva through kissing.
The issue of the communal cup is not new. In 1919, the editor of The Christadelphian magazine, Bro. C.C. Walker, received a query:
“Is it scripturally incumbent upon us to maintain the same form as is maintained by the Birmingham Temperance Hall ecclesia, and practically universally among the brethren…(of having shared cups…) or would it be scripturally permissible to adopt the system of individual cups. This is a sore point with some American ecclesias.”
Bro. Walker responded:
“…There is no (scriptural) law as to the form of drinking the ‘wine,’ nor as to its chemical composition. And ‘Where no law is there is no transgression’ (Rom. 4:15). It becomes, therefore, merely a question of experience, and ought not to be ‘a sore point’ at all. Let the ecclesia discuss the matter and decide the practice in its own sphere (and not look beyond it). And let the minority submit to the majority as the law of both God and man requires. (In the Birmingham ecclesia more than 600 ‘individual cups’ would be required; and the ‘sterilization’ of these week by week for use would be a matter of practical, if not absolute impossibility, and infinitely more difficult than the cleaning of the 16 cups that are now supplied from the central flagon and passed round the meeting.) For our own part, we endeavor to remember Christ and not the microbes. We are nearing the ‘three score and ten,’ and they have not downed us yet, and it would not matter if they had, seeing that the Lord is ‘the Resurrection and the Life.’ And sister Roberts is just entering her 90th year, and still ‘drinks of that cup.’ Besides, it is doubtful whether any microbe could survive in our wine!”
Bro. Walker actually understates the case that can be made for sharing the cup. In commenting on the memorial service, the apostle says, “The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ” (1 Cor. 10:16). He goes on to say that sharing a common loaf of bread speaks of our oneness in Christ. While he does not state the same point in relation to the cup, he comes very close to it and we can hardly miss the implied lesson. Unless obvious problems are present, we thus feel a shared cup better conveys the spirit of the service.
There are circumstances, however, when alternative means may be preferable. In days when tuberculosis was prevalent, we have seen a separate cup used for those infected with it, which is reasonable; and we have noted those with a heavy cold asking for the cup last, which is considerate. In some large ecclesias, the serving brethren wipe the cup rim after each row. This not only addresses the hygiene matter but also makes the cup more presentable to those who are yet to partake.
Recognizing that God controls all disease, He is hardly likely to permit its transmission through an act done in faithful remembrance of that sacrifice which ultimately brings an end to all sickness.
Since we have no specific injunction, let each ecclesia decide on its own practice with the overall objective being that the memorial service might have its intended beneficial affect.
Last–Day Prophecies Continued antagonism to Israel
Dear Bro. Don,
I thought you may find this statement by the Islamic Jihad fascinating as it echoes Psalm 83:4 to an amazing degree.
Referring to the bombing of the Israeli embassy in Argentina the “Islamic Jihad said the attack was part of an ‘open-ended war which will not cease until Israel is wiped out of existence” (U.S. News & World Report, March 30, 1992).
“They say, Come, let us wipe them out as a nation; let the name of Israel be remembered no more!” (Psa. 83:4 RSV).
“Behold, the former things have come to pass, and new things I now declare; before they spring forth I tell you of them” (Isa. 42:9).
Your brother in Christ,
Norm Duke, Irvine, CA
While Iran (Persia) is not alluded to in Psalm 83, their attitude is. The continuing miracle is the existence of Israel in the face of such hostility. With an overwhelming advantage in men and arms, why don’t her enemies obliterate her, instead of threatening with words?
We don’t know the exact details; but on God’s timetable, the Lord “will gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel” (Joel 3:2).
Emphasis on Judah, etc
(Bro. Harry Perks wrote a number of letters regarding last-day prophecies which we have, so far, not been able to include. Following are highlights of one of those letters. Our apologies to Bro. Harry for not having space to reproduce his contributions in their entirety. We have numbered Bro. Harry’s points for ease of following our response.)
Dear Brother Don,
- …Unfortunately, the traditional approach to prophecy of the last days takes no account of the time necessary for the down treading of Israel by hostile forces that will make them request God’s help, which is followed by the preaching of the gospel to affect their belief and baptism. After this, Jesus will return to deliver Judah from their oppressors.
- I have used the name of Judah deliberately for the following reasons. “When I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem, I will gather all nations…You have sold the people of Judah and Jerusalem to the Greeks…Egypt shall become a desolation and Edom a desolate wilderness for the violence done to the people of Judah” (Joel 3:1,6,19). “I will save the tents of Judah first” (Zech. 12:7).
- It is after the repentance of Judah that the dispersed of Israel are gathered and they become one nation (one stick) under Jesus (Ezk. 37:15-24). Then comes the invasion by God and his hordes in Ezekiel 38 and 39. And the invaders are not destroyed by the earthquake but by the turning of every man’s sword against his brother, and by torrential rain, hailstones, fire and brimstone. What Judah had learned previously, now the house of Israel learned first hand that the Lord was their God from that day forward (Ezk. 39:22).
- I was asked to compare Zechariah 14:2 with Revelation 16:14-16. In Zechariah 14 :2 , the location of the battle is at Jerusalem. Assuming Revelation 16:14-16 is literal, the location of the battle is at Armageddon (Har Mageddon RV)which is a hill at Megiddo…which is about 60 miles north of Jerusalem. However, since Zechariah is literal and Revelation is symbolic, a valid comparison, if there is one, would be very difficult to make.
With brotherly love,
Harry Perks, Stayner, ONT
- There is nothing inherent to the “traditional” approach that prohibits a subjugation of Israel that could last for several years. The king of the north will “overflow and pass over,” overthrowing many countries and will have power over the treasures of Egypt (Dan. 11:40-45). The occupation intimated here could last for months or years. It is during that time, when Gog has come against Israel that God’s fury comes up in his face (Ezk. 38:18).
- The emphasis on Judah is understandable. Inhabitants of Judah and Jerusalem were particular subjects of Joel’s prophecy. They must realize the supposed privilege of living in and around the center of God’s concern would not inhibit His judgments for their iniquity (Joel 2:13).
Generations later, Zechariah was sent to encourage those returned to this area that Jerusalem had not been cast off for ever (Zech. 1:12,14). Consistent with this objective, he makes specific reference to Judah being saved in the future.
- Ezekiel 36-39 is not in chronological order. Three prophecies are given each following a different theme to the commencement of the kingdom. Chapter 36 covers national repentance, chapter 37 national regathering and chapters 38 and 39 judgment upon the Gentiles. Each prophecy concludes with Gentile and Jewish recognition of God’s purpose with Israel and her submission to Him (Ezk. 36:36-38; 37:27-28; 39:23,2829).
Furthermore, Jews still scattered when those in the land are humbled will not return to the land for the purpose of being converted. While being regathered, they must convert to right worship or be purged from the returnees. At that point, no rebels will be allowed into the land (Ezk. 20:34-38).
We see no reason to think many would not die as a result of the mighty earthquake described in Ezekiel 38:19,20. Additionally, earthquake is a divine means for creating the confusion that results in every man’s sword being against his fellow (cf. 1 Sam. 14:15,20).
- Along with Bro. Perks, we feel Revelation is symbolic. It speaks of God’s threshing of the Gentiles in judgment, a judgment which encompasses more than one battle. The destruction of the Gogian invader depicted in Ezekiel 38-39 is certainly included, however, as is proven by the identical means of judgment being employed (massive earthquake and the plague of a great storm, Ezk. 38:19-22; Rev. 16:18-21).
Strong’s Concordance