Christ: firstborn & creator

Dear Brother Don,

In Col. 1:15, the Lord Jesus is spoken of as the first person born. In the next verse, he is indicated as the creator. If these verses are not speaking about Jesus existing before he was born, what are they talking about?

Yours in Christ,
M. Burke (Jamaica, W . I.)

“Firstborn” — this word is a title describing a position of preeminence. Following are the points of evidence:

  1. In Israel, the first son born normally received a preeminent position in the family. Customarily this meant a double portion of inheritance and family leadership upon the death of his fa­ther (Deut. 21:17; I Chr. 26:10).
  2. The first son born could lose his privileges (Gen. 25:33-34; Deut. 21:17; I Chr. 5:1-2; 26:10).
  3. The son receiving the birthright was titled “firstborn” (Deut. 21:16; Jer. 31:9 — Ephraim was not the first son born to Joseph but he was given preeminence over Manasseh, his older brother Gen. 48:17-19 and was therefore titled “firstborn”).
  4. “Firstborn” is a Messianic title indicating his position of preeminence (Psa. 89:27). A careful reading of this verse is important: “I will make him my firstborn.” The future tense and God’s action prove Messiah would not be the first person born. If he were, God would not later have been required to elevate him to that status for he would already have had it by virtue of being born first.
  5. The Colossian ecclesia was being troubled by those who argued Jesus Christ was not an adequate savior (Col. 2:2-4, 8-10). To help allay any fears on the part of the brethren, Col. 1:15,17-18 sets forth the preeminent status of Christ one aspect of which is that, while not being created first, he occupies the privileged position of “firstborn.”
  6. It is interesting to note how often the first son born lost his privileges in favor of a younger brother: Cain lost his to Abel and then Seth, Ishmael to Isaac, Esau to Jacob, Reuben to Judah and Joseph, Manasseh to Ephraim. This is not accidental. Here is a message that the flesh does not commend one to God and here is a foreshadowing that a second Adam would arise who would be exalted to be head of the race.

“by him were all things created” -­the following information is essential to a right understand­ing of this statement:

  1. The created things in mind are not the heavens and earth, the sun, moon, land, trees and animals of Genesis 1. Rather they are things “in” heaven and “in” earth “thrones,” “powers,” “rulers” and “authorities” (NIV).
  2. Christ was not exalted over au­thorities etc. until he was raised from the dead (Eph. 1:19-22).
  3. The Greek word translated “created” is KTIZO which means “to produce, create, generally, to make or render so and so” (Liddell-Scott Gk. Lexicon). In other words, the term can mean to create something initially, as was done “in the beginning,” or it can mean to change the circumstances of something that is already in existence. Of the 13 occurrences of the word in the New Testament, 7 of them are in Ephesians and Colossians, two very closely related epistles. In these epistles, the word is consistently used to describe the changing of already existing people or institutions. For example, we are “created in Christ Jesus unto good works;” “put on the new man, which after God is created…;” “the new man, is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him” (Eph. 2:10; 4:24; Col. 3:10). In Christ, a new person is not actually created but the conduct of the existing person is to be so radically changed that it is as if a new individual came into being.
  4. “Principalities and powers” are defined in Col. 2:15 as being what Christ conquered through the cross — that is, sin and death.
  5. In 1:20, “reconcile” is used as a synonym of “created:”
    v.16 “by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth”
    v.20 “by him to reconcile all things unto himself…whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.”
    Through the Lord Jesus, all things are to be brought into their proper relationship including the law, human ruler ships, Jews, Gentiles, the angels, believers, sinners and sin and death.
  6. Because of the all-sufficient work of God in Christ, the believer can be confident that in Christ he is qualified for the inheritance of the saints, has been delivered from the power of darkness, has been redeemed, has been reconciled to God and has been wholly forgiven of sin if he continues in the faith (1:12,13,14,21,22).
  7. Therefore, the believer does not need to fear the unsettling teaching of others that he has not been adequately saved (2:16-18).

With these points in mind, it is clear that Col. 1:16 is not talking about the Genesis creation but about salvation in Christ.

David’s cruelty

We understand that David was a warrior king and shed much blood but doesn’t he act with excessive cruelty on a number of occasions? He seems to have tortured people in Ammon by cutting them up with saws and axes (II Sam. 12:31), arbitrarily killed many captured Moabites (8:2), houghed horses which is painful for the animal (8:4), slew women and children of desert bands to hide his activities (I Sam. 27:11), cut the foreskins of 200 Philistines which is the first step to skinning them alive (18:27) and set out to kill all the males in Naboth’ s household be­cause of Nabal’ s personal insult (25:22).

Is there something we are missing that would explain such behavior?

Detroit sister’s class

The question you raise is a good one for many of these incidents have been seized upon by Bible critics to denigrate Scripture as being nothing more than the writings of men.

Considering the incidents one at a time we note the following:

Ammon II Sam. 12:31 – this is cleared up by other translations: “and brought out the people who were here, consigning them to labor with saws and with iron picks and axes, and he made them work at brick making. He did this to all the Ammonite towns” (NIV, RSV is similar). Such treatment of captured peoples was unusual for David for normally he only required tribute of them. Solomon followed a similar practice of enslavement on one occasion (I Kgs. 9:21). However, the text clearly does not convey the idea of cutting people up with saws.

Moab II Sam. 8:2– see Num. 24:17 and the divine judgment against Moab. Even though they were related through Lot, they treated Israel with great hostility, denying them passage through their land (Jud. 11:17-18), seeking God’s curse upon them (Num. 22:2-6) and finally seducing them into paganism (Num. 25:1­3). Moab was without excuse for their idolatry for through Lot the Truth had been in their family from the beginning and they had witnessed the great deliverance of Israel from Egypt and their preservation in the wilder­ness. David thus executes the judgment of God upon this people. His selecting specific ones for destruction is possibly based on Num. 24:17 where the princes and the “children of Sheth” are specifically marked for destruction. The “children of Sheth” may have been one part of the Moabites. An additional point to note is that David safeguarded his parents with the king of Moab but his parents are not heard of again (I Sam. 22:3­4). The king may have double-crossed David by slaying them.

Horses houghed II Sam. 8:4 — David was determined to implement Deut. 17:16 and not let Israel come to rely on superior natural weapons for their victories. David had little option in this matter. He could not let the horses go for that would rearm his enemies. He could not bring them back in good condition for that would tempt his people. He could only kill them or render them unfit for battle by a temporarily painful procedure.

Slew women and children of desert tribes I Sam. 27:11 — David was in the spiritual depths at this time. His faith wavered (27:1) and he sought refuge with the world. One step in the direction of sin led to another as David sunk into a life of deception and violence. Here is a dramatic object lesson in the dangers of starting down the course of the world. But the greater guilt is attached to those in Israel who had driven God’s anointed out of ecclesial fellowship (26:19).

Flaying 200 Philistines I Sam. 18:27 — Scripture says he slew the Philistines, it does not say anything about flaying them (18:27). The point regarding the foreskins is that this assured they were uncircumcised, that is, unconverted Philistines. By their close association with Is­rael, they had ample opportunity to know Yahweh and come to serve Him. Some did (as in II Sam. 15:19) but most stubbornly persisted in pagan idolatry and defied the God of Israel, thereby inviting judgment upon themselves.

Attacking Nabal’s host I Sam. 25:2 — This would have been a sin of seeking to avenge oneself (25:26). Once David realized the situation, he humbly backed down and complied with divine principles.

Far from being a cruel man, there is much in David’s life that indicates he was a gentle and kind man. In contrast to the Amalaldtes, he is kind to a sick Egyptian slave; opposing the worldly men in his own company, he considers those too weary to proceed with the chase; unlike the thankless Nabal, he expresses appreciation to his benefactors (I Sam. 30:11,22-23,26). He showed kindness to the house of Saul (II Sam. 9:1) and to the new king of Ammon (10:2). He was considerate of newly arrived troops, not wanting them to endanger themselves for his sake (II Sam. 15:19). He tended Is­rael with the loving care of a shepherd for his flock, executing judgment and justice unto all his people (Psa. 78:71-72; II Sam. 8:15).

David was not a cruel man; he was a godly man who would not hesitate to execute the judgments of Yahweh or subdue the enemies of Israel yet he blended a zeal for the Lord with consideration, kindness and gentleness.

Singles Conference

Dear Bro. Don,

I think the idea of a weekend gathering aimed at older, unmarried brethren and sisters is a good one. After outgrowing the CYC, there are no ecclesially sponsored activities aimed at brethren and sisters who have not yet married and started a family. It is easy for people in this situation to feel isolated from ecclesial life and begin to look to the world for friendships and entertainment.

This past year, as you know, several members of the Detroit area ecclesias formed a Christadelphian Young Adults Class (CYAC). This class is open to unmarried brethren and sisters over 21 as well as married couples without children. The class meets every Saturday night to read and discuss the daily Bible readings. Occasionally, a social evening is planned, consisting of sports activities or going out for dinner together.

The first year has been a great success. Many profitable hours have been spent together around God’s word. The class has been a good place to bring interested friends and family members to discuss first principle subjects. It has also been attended by visitors from other eccle­sias who have added to the discussions. Most importantly, good and lasting friendships have been formed among brethren and sisters who share many of the same problems and challenges inherent in trying to live in accordance with God’s commandments.

It is hard to resist the idea of trying to achieve the same kind of fellowship in a larger group. A weekend gathering similar to the one described in the June issue sounds like it could be a lot of fun as well as being spiritually uplifting. I know the members of the Detroir CYAC would be interested in attending. Is anybody else interested?

Love in Christ,
Susan Stewart

We are currently trying to locate a suitable site for such a weekend activity. Ideally it would provide conference and recreational facilities as well as bed and meals, all in one location. We are looking more for resort-type arrangements similar to those used by the Florida or Silver Star Bible schools rather than a youth camp. If anyone has suggestions as to location, please forward them to the editor. Incidentally, Sis. Susan Stewart is not the fictional “Dear Susan” who occasionally receives letters in the “Tidings.”

A Bill of Divorcement

Dear Bro. Don,

Greetings in Jesus Christ, our one hope.

I have been wrestling with a difficult situation for over a year and write to you seeking some guidance to what seems to me an overwhelming problem.

After 13 years of marriage to a Christadelphian brother, he has presented me with a “Bill of Divorcement.” We have five children but he has abandoned us to live with a Christadelphian sister who has separated from her husband. He refers to her as his “espoused wife” and intends to “legalize” their relation­ship as soon as I sign papers agreeing to his divorce from me.

From the standpoint of our faith, how can I rightfully sign these divorce papers that he so urgently wishes?

I have been pushed almost to the limit. The two of them are utterly persistent, making threats, sending harassing letters to me, my children, my family and various brethren and making disturbing telephone calls.

It is only by God’s grace that I have kept my faith. Truly, He has blessed me by showing me His love so surely.

Love in Christ,
Sis. R.M.

Individually and collectively we must do all that we can to prevent divorce. “What therefore God has joined together, let not man put asunder” is the Lord’s maxim that should guide our actions. In your case, applying that principle means not signing the divorce papers presented to you by your husband. (They were a travesty of apparent honorableness. If he wants to be honorable, let him honor his vows to you and to God and with a heart full of contrition return to his family. Or at the very least, let him sign over to you full custody of the children and all assets of the marriage.) He will have to give account to the Lord Jesus for his own iniquity, but you are right in giving no consent to it in any way.

As we know from first-hand information and as is confirmed by the ecclesial news from Hamilton (Ewen Rd.), broken families are an increasing problem within the brotherhood. We surely must do more to prevent this plague from spreading and we can do it.

Families do not break down overnight. Those close to the situation can normally see the problems developing for years. Realizing this, one ecclesia we know ran a marriage enrichment workshop. So far, it has achieved its objective as several couples were helped by the classes.

Another practice that works is to make sure mature brethren and sisters are in close touch with each family in the ecclesia. In small ec­clesias, this can be done informally, in larger ones it may require that specific assignments of responsibility be made in this regard.

We do not want to be working behind the problems and trying to handle broken marriages after they have already occurred. Let us try to get ahead of the problem that we know will exist in these last days.

In your case, dear sister, our heart and our prayers reach out to you that God will continue to give you the faith and courage that He has already supplied. May you be an example to others in refusing to give your consent to your husband’s wrong.

Revival Needed

Dear Brother Don,

Greetings in Jesus our Lord.

Just now and only now have I been able to sit and even think about communicating with my brethren. Really I would like to be able to have a few hours with you, then I could open my heart and pour out the joy that comes with a fruitful life in the Master’s service.

There are a lot of positive things happening in this corner of the Lord’s vineyard and there are also a few problems. Yet with a little more constructive spiritual guidance our situation would improve.

We need our Lord! However, while he tarries, with his help, we could inject a little zeal and confidence into our young brethren to become stronger soldiers of Christ. We can not afford to be separated by division and bias and in so many cases involved up to our ears in the pursuit of material things. After being over 50 years in the Truth, I am able to assess our strengths and weaknesses. I have come to the conclusion we need revival.

We need leadership; we need strong brethren to breathe some confidence into our ecclesias. I know we need above all else Christ; but if he delays his coming, we must keep the lights burning. Bible schools and weekend gatherings are vital to us.

At present, we are enjoying the visit of a young brother. He is dedicated and has Bible confidence. God has a great future for us. We will be laborers with Christ to fill the world with God’s glory.

D.S. (Canada)

We read your letter with great enjoyment. Your love of the Truth vibrates across the miles.

We were pleased to see you note good points in the brotherhood as well as the need for revival. In early July, we returned from an ASK campaign encouraged by what we had seen. There were not great numbers of visitors, but there were several who came back many times for extended Bible discussion. Furthermore, there was vigorous participation by what you would call younger brethren and sisters. In fact, one young brother gave such a splendor presentation on Daniel’s prophecies that one in the audience broke out into applause when he finished.

Many months ago, we made an appeal for a conscious use of our local brethren for special efforts. The experience will deepen them and they in turn will help invigorate the North American ecclesias. We have good potential in our ecclesias, let’s develop it until our Lord comes.

Christadelphians are uncaring

Dear Editor,

I am not a Christadelphian but my daughter is and she needs help very badly. I wish your church practiced intervention as some organizations do these days. I don’t think that Christians (of whatever doctrine) who don’t care about their fellow man enough to butt in and risk getting their feelings hurt (or whatever) are true Christians regardless of how well they know and understand the Bible. I know about Christadelphian negligence first hand. You disfellow­ship members when they sin. How does that help the sinner? Church is supposed to be a haven for sinners, not a museum for saints!

Thank you.
M.M. (US)

First of all, no Christadelphian ecclesia that I know of disfellow­ships people “when they sin.” They will, however, eventually disfellow­ship those people who persist in deliberate sin in spite of Biblical counseling to walk in the right course.

The objective of such action is to restore the sinner to the Truth by jarring them into recognizing their sinful walk is wholly incompatible with the Kingdom of God. A secondary reason for disfellowship is to warn all ecclesial members that deliberate sin will lead only to death and not to eternal life.

Admittedly, one of our human weaknesses is to become so self-centered that we fail to spot trouble in the lives of our brethren and sisters soon enough. Within the Christadel­phian community, this problem can be made worse by not having specific people who spend full-time on pastoral duties. Many ecclesias recognize this problem and have taken steps to correct it. One larger eccle­sia I am familiar with has assigned each of the arranging brethren responsibility to be particularly concerned for 12 members of the eccle­sia. The objective is to prevent personal problems from developing into irreversible disasters.

The advantage in the Christadel­phian approach is that many more individuals become involved in ec­clesial activities and thus have an opportunity to grow spiritually themselves.

From your letter, it is evident that in some cases we need to do a better job of preserving the advantages of our system while making sure no members drift into problems without help being available.

Trust God’s Wisdom

The following letter was addressed to Bro. Andrew Muniz, whose exhortation appeared in the March, 1989 “Tidings.”

Dear Brother Muniz:

Greetings in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Just a few lines to let you know how much our family appreciated your article entitled “Trust God’s Wisdom” which appeared in the March/89 issue of the “Tidings” magazine.

We have just recently lost an 8 year-old grandson, the son of our son, Brother Richard and Sister

Nancy Farrar.

It just so happens that Robert was a very spiritually-minded child. He read the Bible every day and memorized many passages. It is at times like this that we are confronted with the ways of providence. It is important that we keep our thinking straight and that our faith in the wisdom of the Almighty remains unshaken. Your article has been read by my four children and their spouses and it has been a source of help in our hour of grief and sorrow.

Sometimes one wonders if anybody reads what we write. I thought you would like to know that your labors are not in vain in the Lord.

Yours in the Hope of Israel,

E.W. Farrar
Hamilton, ONT

The death by accident of one of their children is something all parents dread. Surely our hearts go out to Rich and Nancy and our prayers arise on their behalf. May our heavenly Father strengthen their faith and give them courage that they may endure and may be an example to others of the faithful endurance of tragedy.

May we all be encouraged to labor in the Truth for we never know in what way our service will benefit others.

Items from sisters

Two readers have suggested it is not appropriate for the “Tidings” to attribute articles and ecclesial news to sisters. Reasoning from the points that sisters are to keep silence in the congregation and are not to usurp authority in the ecclesia, they feel the material should be unsigned or be signed by a brother.

In all matters, let us reflect the balance of Scripture. The words of Miriam, Deborah, Hannah, Elizabeth and Mary are inspired prophecies included in Scripture right alongside the inspired utterances of men. Furthermore, the gift of prophecy (exposition of the Truth) was given to some sisters in the early ecclesias (Acts 21:9; I Cor. 11:5). We thus feel that occasional articles by sisters are appropriate. But is not an article to the brotherhood in the same category as an exhortation given from the platform? We do not feel that it is. The silence of sisters in the formal assembly of the saints is what is required. So long as that is observed, and the written contributions of sisters are in the minority, we feel the spirit of the principles of God is being followed.

Ecclesial news submitted by a secretary sister may or may not reflect an inappropriate ecclesial situation. In some cases, the recording secretary of a meeting acts as a spiritual leader of the ecclesia while in others the function is purely a secretarial matter of recording minutes and attendance. Not all ecclesias operate the same way. If sisters submit ecclesial news because the brethren are too involved with worldly pursuits to devote time to the Truth, then a bad situation is reflected. If, however, the sister is simply performing a service within a secretarial-type job, we see no objection to the practice. Unless there is some clearly incorrect ecclesial situation that is known to ourselves, we plan to continue the present practice.

(In an age of ready communication and transportation, many responses come to the editor via phone calls or conversations with those visiting in the area. While not strictly letters to the editor, they serve the same purpose of reader response to matters that interest them.)

Home schooling

A Canadian sister comments:

Her job is to evaluate home-schooled children to make sure they are progressing at an acceptable pace. She finds that home-schooling takes a great deal of parental time and that this time increases as the material becomes more difficult. In her school district, she finds the home-schooled children generally do fine in reading and English but fall behind in math and science.

Her opinion is that Christadel­phian parents could very well find that home-schooling their children leaves virtually no time for doing Bible readings with them or helping them with Sunday school homework.

A mid-western brother who teaches high-school English notes:

Today’s teachers consistently favor assigning books that contain foul language and sexually explicit material. In his own case, he was fortunate to have a principal and superintendent who supported his objections to such books. However, many parents would find home-schooling provided the advantage of eliminating such reading material from their children’s assignments.

Letters to Susan

“Is it possible to run a ‘personal’ column where single brothers and sisters could write and acquaint themselves. I know of one brother who would like to meet sisters of his age group with marriage in mind, and I’m sure there are others.”

We do not plan to commence such a column but we would suggest that any brothers or sisters in the situation you describe attend Bible schools, weekend activities and other ecclesias in addition to attending all the activities of their own ecclesia. They might also take note of the following item.

“Is it possible to have a ‘young adults gathering.’ The idea would not be to provide a place for matchmaking. If that did occur, there would be no complaints, but the primary objective would be to address the needs of today’s single brethren and sisters.

“Because of the employment opportunities today, many sisters may choose to remain single. When they do, however, they face a variety of problems different from those faced by one who is a mother and housewife. The same is true of brethren who may find that today’s living style permits them to follow Paul’s advice and not marry. They sometimes feel left out in the family atmosphere of Bible schools and feel out of-place at youth weekends.

“The idea would be to have a weekend in pleasant surroundings in southern Ontario or the mid-west with a minimum age of 21. Do you think many people would be interested in this?”

Love in Christ,
Susan

Generally speaking, we are in favor of preserving a family atmosphere at all ecclesial functions. However, we have found youth circle weekends to be very useful and the foregoing suggestion may be worth trying. With the possible advantages in mind, we have privately forwarded some ideas along with a suggested agenda. We have no idea how many people would be interested. If some would welcome such an activity, perhaps they could write to the “Tidings” and we could pass on the response.

Hats

“I appreciated your editorial in the March issue on the wearing of hats by sisters.

“I would like to present a couple of thoughts on the subject for your consideration and comment.

“I believe the fact that the subject is introduced in 1 Cor. 11 by the points contained in verse three is significant.

v.3 Head of man — Christ. Head of woman — husband (man).

v.4 Any man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head (Christ).

v.7 “he (Christ) is the image and glory of God.” Christ said he who had seen him had seen the Father (John 14:9). Also note Heb. 1:3. Christ must not be covered. He is without spot or blemish and has redeemed us unto our God (Rev. 5 :5- 14). The gospel of salvation through Christ must be proclaimed and evidently set forth among us.

“The head of a woman is her husband and “woman is the glory of man” (v.7). Woman is therefore representative of mankind (men and women).

“Because we all sin and come short of the glory of God, we are excluded from His presence, separated by our sins. We can only approach unto God by acceptance of the covering provided through Christ (note Matt. 22:11-14). To attempt to approach without a covering would certainly bring dishonor upon us.

In complying, then, with Paul’s instructions in I Cor. 11, we are, to my mind, acknowledging this principle and are a living exhortation to one another.”

Your brother in Christ,
Theo Readman
Pickardville, Alberta

Thanks very much for your comments and your good and useful exposition.

Just a small comment on two points that you made. While the husband is the head of the wife, the emphasis here is on man as the head of the woman. This is important because the principles set forth apply to all sisters and not only to married ones. Secondly, I think the woman’s head represents man as opposed to man and woman. By uncovering her head, she is not demonstrating for the equality of women but is, ironically, destroying the lesson that man must be humbled before the surpassing glory of Jesus Christ.

May each of us be living exhortations to one another in our communal worship and in our daily conduct.

Abortion

Dear Bro. Don:

Recently the Vancouver Sun ran an article with the headline: “Abortion foes martyrs, Catholic spokesmen claim.” In it, a couple of Roman Catholic spokesmen are quoted to claim that “the Romans crucified Jesus because he refused to recognize the authority of the Roman state.” It is also claimed that “there’s a very rich tradition that compels people to follow their consciences and challenge the right of the state.” We view such words and actions to be an espousal of the spirit of the French Revolution, spoken of in the Revelation as unclean frog-like spirits issuing out of the mouth of the false prophet. A letter was written to the editor to challenge these unscriptu­ral claims (see below).

Yours in Christ,
Art Bull

The Editor
The Vancouver Sun

Dear Sir:

A couple of the statements in Douglas Todd’s article (Friday, February 10, 1989, page B2, “Abortion foes martyrs, Catholic spokesmen claim”) are in need of some clarification. What is meant by stating that the “Christian tradition of civil disobedience…began with Jesus,” and “the Romans crucified Jesus because he refused to recognize the authority of the Roman state?” The Christian abortion foes’ attitude of rebellion against government authority may be church tradition, but most certainly did not originate with Jesus, who taught, “Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s; and unto God the things that are God’s.”

The apostle Paul showed that Jesus had more in mind than simply paying taxes when he wrote, “The powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resists the power, resists the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.” The historian Edward Gibbon noted that the earliest Christians “cheerfully submitted to the authority of their Pagan governors,” and “they inculcated the maxims of passive obedience” (not, please note, passive resistance! – see Decline & Fall of the Roman Empire, chapter 15). The observation of the philosopher Bertrand Russell is in perfect agreement: “Christianity was, in its earliest days, entirely unpolitical” (Power: A New Social Analysis).

I would suggest that the Christians among the jailed abortion pro­testors are both ill-informed and misguided if they think that by such actions they are walking in the footsteps of Christ. It was he who de­clared to the Roman governor, Pon­tius Pilate, “My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight” (John 18). If church leaders want to save unborn children, they should start by educating their own members. It is not the legitimate business of Christians to use political means to reform the evils in secular society.

Arthur G. Bull
1022 7th Avenue
New Westminster, BC